tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post4351228129153409816..comments2023-12-06T02:22:41.121-06:00Comments on The Hamburg Post: Proposition 19: State Rights being testedtthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09917268285666551114noreply@blogger.comBlogger82125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-6694671770779765712010-11-04T08:54:56.107-05:002010-11-04T08:54:56.107-05:00So because they don't remember the seizure aft...So because they don't remember the seizure after the fact will power isn't the issue?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-73041694075146005122010-11-04T07:49:47.808-05:002010-11-04T07:49:47.808-05:00Truman - yet people claim to be addicted to gambli...Truman - yet people claim to be addicted to gambling that they have uncontrollable urges and need to get that next winning hand high, that thrill of the horse crossing the finish line, or getting Quads. I used to work in the industry and I witnessed this thirst for the next winning hand or horse. Never once did I say they were addicted but, by previous definition of addiction - reward center, that activity would be one. <br /><br />Now I still contend that it is a weakness in ones will power to bet every last dime one has chasing that next winning proposition and not that one is addicted.tthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09917268285666551114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-67465063723553428642010-11-04T07:46:03.230-05:002010-11-04T07:46:03.230-05:00Blackouts are not a cause of seizures they are a r...Blackouts are not a cause of seizures they are a result of having a seizure where the person having the seizure has no recollection of what took place. <br /><br />As for someone who drinks too much and doesn't recall the nights events doesn't mean they are "addicted". Binge drinking is a prime example of that. If a Binge Drinker is addicted then, by definition, they'd be an addict and not a Binge Drinker. Just as one that is slipped a "roofie" and doesn't recall the nights events, Are they an addict too?tthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09917268285666551114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-66398716158122351072010-11-03T11:01:02.016-05:002010-11-03T11:01:02.016-05:00Even if they don't remember the seizure will p...Even if they don't remember the seizure will power should be able to stop it before it happens. You seem to be arguing the effect, blackout, as the cause of the seizure. <br /><br />Now, back to the reference of MS above. It's a disorder where the immune system attacks the brain. So should ones will power be able to override that?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-35202406326023729362010-11-03T08:43:56.309-05:002010-11-03T08:43:56.309-05:00"Truman - one does not have to be and addict ..."Truman - one does not have to be and addict to have a blackout."<br /><br />But your assertion was that epileptics black out, therefore addiction is not the same as epilepsy. So how does saying that you don't need to be an addict to suffer a blackout buttress your argument? Using mind altering drugs (alcohol included) can induce blackouts. Having a seizure can cause blackouts. If you can control addiction through willpower, why not seizures since by your logic they are the same? (which contradicts your earlier point)<br /><br />"Now more one abuses the more likely a blackout will take place but that does not translate to "addiction""<br /><br />You know that by definition, if you are abusing a drug (including alcohol) you are BY DEFINITION an addict right? Social drinking is not addiction. Abuse of alcohol is. Abuse is the key. And the studies have shown that the chemical and physical structure of your brain is also altered by the chemicals you are abusing. Therefore, there are physical effects to what you have done. This is part of what leads to the physical symptoms if you attempt to quit the addiction.<br /><br />A great example of this is methadone addiction. The physical symptoms are so severe that people have commit suicide to escape them. Excruciating pain, sickness, etc. If addiction is all about compulsion, why do they have physical effects from quitting? <br /><br />I can go play poker, but when I quit I don't throw up and get sick from it. That's compulsion, I can avoid that with will power. Addiction, once set in, is very real. <br /><br />Again, that's why I hold people accountable for the original choice. But once addicted I understand they need treatment. I just don't feel it's the governments job to pay for it.Trumannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-76946048169602666672010-11-02T15:47:40.804-05:002010-11-02T15:47:40.804-05:00Founding Fathers - For starters, I have never do a...Founding Fathers - For starters, I have never do and do not use Wikipedia - not even as a jump off point. Now, since I do not have New England Medical Journal or Psychology Today in my home Google is a great way to get many sources on any topic. I do perform multiple searches on several sites to vet my information. I hope it will be okay for me to do a Google search on those people you just listed.<br /><br />Truman - one does not have to be and addict to have a blackout. All one has to do is drink too much. Now more one abuses the more likely a blackout will take place but that does not translate to "addiction"<br /><br />Did anyone read the article above?tthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09917268285666551114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-27591028747098953952010-11-02T15:23:33.980-05:002010-11-02T15:23:33.980-05:00"Truman - where I'd differ on your assert..."Truman - where I'd differ on your assertion is that, typically, people that have seizures "Afterwards, the person does not remember the episode"<br /><br />I know plenty of drug/alcohol addicts that would say the same thing. Blackouts are a VERY common occurance for people suffering from neurological disorders.Trumannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-62057833265104505912010-11-02T15:19:06.272-05:002010-11-02T15:19:06.272-05:00Viper, I think you've proven to me that you ar...Viper, I think you've proven to me that you are a master of Google searches and Wikipedia research. It's like you're Larry Page, Sergey Brin, Jimmy Wales and Kim Peek all rolled into one.The Founding Fathersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-31352507163551272612010-11-02T14:34:23.501-05:002010-11-02T14:34:23.501-05:00Truman - where I'd differ on your assertion is...Truman - where I'd differ on your assertion is that, typically, people that have seizures "Afterwards, the person does not remember the episode" http://www.everydayhealth.com/health-center/seizures.aspx<br /><br />So the willpower to fight the need for stimulant is not the same as one that is prone to seizures. Typically seizures are not from burnout but a result of traumatic event in ones system.tthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09917268285666551114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-67430882147366592692010-11-02T10:35:38.098-05:002010-11-02T10:35:38.098-05:00Same would have to be true of MS then.Same would have to be true of MS then.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-77834498517399059582010-11-02T09:26:44.930-05:002010-11-02T09:26:44.930-05:00Viper,
Seizures, at least most of them, are caused...Viper,<br />Seizures, at least most of them, are caused by hyperactive neurons that "misfire" as you say and cause involuntary responses within the body.<br /><br />Addiction is caused by hyperactive neurons that "misfire" when triggered by a chemical stimulus. This "misfire" causes the high. However, the chemicals that cause this high (dopamine, endorphine, etc) typically are limited in their quantity of production which means that the cells shut down after this burst of production. This causes the subsequent low and desire to repeat that process. (It's also why neurological damage is common as neurons burn out)<br /><br />How can you say that in scenario #1, they have no control via willpower yet in scenario #2 they do? I'm not talking about prior to their first use, I'm talking about once they're in full blown addiction. <br /><br />The neurological triggers for epilepsy and addiction may be different, by the neurochemical actions are actually very similar. The difference is where in the brain they occur. One is in the motor reflex portion and one is in reward center. <br /><br />Will power alone should be able to control both if that's the case.<br /><br />PS - I'm in no way saying that willpower isn't important, but it is not enough in and of itself.Trumannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-87390761838750470172010-11-02T08:36:34.442-05:002010-11-02T08:36:34.442-05:00BTW....it is not as cut and dry as many are making...BTW....it is not as cut and dry as many are making it out here. <br /><br />http://www.drug-addiction-support.org/Drug-addiction-Choice.html<br /><br />It appears the debate is still open and not as conclusive as some may think. If we are really creatures of evolution then, I ask, why cannot one develop the internal strength to combat "addiction"?tthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09917268285666551114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-10475856210217887872010-11-02T08:04:59.422-05:002010-11-02T08:04:59.422-05:00Anon - Also, the purpose of the blog is to create ...Anon - Also, the purpose of the blog is to create discussion on the topics that face us today or observations I experience. I do welcome others, if they want to, to put their original blog entries here to spark debate.<br /><br />Civil discourse is what is badly needed in America today while the ruling class continues to run their Ponzi Schemes. We will not always agree but we will be respectful of each others thoughts, comments and stance on the topic with hope that we can find middle ground. To find that middle ground is not easy as each of us have our ideals. Let's think beyond ourselves here and come up with real solutions and vigorous debate.tthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09917268285666551114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-89668584670728903932010-11-02T08:00:35.368-05:002010-11-02T08:00:35.368-05:00Anonymous - just because I don't agree with yo...Anonymous - just because I don't agree with your point and your unwillingness to recognize that scientific facts are not gospel in themselves either poses the same question to you about entering into an open and honest discussion.<br /><br />The mind is a very powerful tool and the scientific community will admit that they do not understand it all either. How else does someone that is on their death bed suddenly recover? I have and do acknowledge the current scientific belief but that does not mean we do not continue to challenge it.<br /><br />As I did earlier with my short list of items that scientists have wavered on, are you to say they are definitive here? I have a number of the boxes checked that scientists and psychologist require to label someone with an addictive personality but I don't have one. Why? I'd like to think it's because of my meditation and strengthening of my will power.<br /><br />Truman - as for seizures, I am not sure will power can heal that divide since, as I understand it, is a sever of neurons in the brain and misfiring or non-firing synapses. Now the body does have some tremendous healing powers and perhaps someday people will find a way. With your comparison to an epileptic you come very close to making the pre-determined wiring of the brain toward addiction.tthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09917268285666551114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-1458573561144006732010-11-02T07:19:04.069-05:002010-11-02T07:19:04.069-05:00Why should anyone attempt to enter into an open an...Why should anyone attempt to enter into an open and honest discussion and/or debate with a person who refuses to acknowledge scientific fact? If you are unwilling to accept scientific facts and choose to substitute your own personal experiment for gospel on this topic, then how could anyone ever expect you to accept a view that differs from your own on any number of topics, like Constitutional Law, the history of the U.S., economics, finance or foreign affairs? <br /><br />I guess what I'm asking is, what's the point of this blog?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-44987330725742439592010-11-01T08:34:06.476-05:002010-11-01T08:34:06.476-05:00Viper, I have to admit, part of what you are sayin...Viper, I have to admit, part of what you are saying makes sense to me. You believe that if you can tap the under-utilized resources within the brain, you could beat addiction, and it's entirely possible you can. I don't discount that. But most people can't once addicted for one simple reason - making the decision to go down the path you discuss means making rational and logical decisions consciously. Addicts don't have that ability anymore due to their altered state of mind.<br /><br />To say that they can do this, is to say that an epileptic should be able to use willpower to override the chemical triggers for a seizure. This is the same as addiction because both epilepsy and addiction involve altered brain structure/chemistry. If you can defeat one with willpower, then it stands to reason that you can do so for another doesn't it?Trumannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-67322643437206656532010-10-29T13:45:36.679-05:002010-10-29T13:45:36.679-05:00Viper, you are missing a huge aspect of addiction....Viper, you are missing a huge aspect of addiction. It's a disease of the brain. Not everyone's brain is the wired the same. Just because you don't become addicted doesn't mean addiction isn't real. To be honest, you would be lucky. Now, some people develop addiction through continued use. Which is their choice. But that still doesn't change that they are addicted. Two people can use the same amount for the same length of time and one becomes addicted and the other doesn't. It's not will power, it's the rewiring of the brain. <br /><br />For one a habit stays a habit for the other it turns into something far worse.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-42055460597179669192010-10-29T12:37:50.809-05:002010-10-29T12:37:50.809-05:00"I don't claim to have access to them but..."I don't claim to have access to them but I do know that through my own experiences and use of meditation I have been able to increase the strength of my will power even when partaking in "addictive" activities."<br /><br />Again, the activities you lay out are not addictive. They do not affect the neuro-processes that I noted above. At no point does gambling block dopamine reuptake. At no point does eating trigger 5x the normal endorphine production.<br /><br />If they did, you could become addicted. Because they don't, you can't and it's a compulsion and compulsions can be beaten with willpower. Addictions rarely can.<br /><br />That's why people shouldn't start in the first place and why I hold them accountable if they choose to do so.Trumannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-67001714878078784432010-10-29T12:24:28.109-05:002010-10-29T12:24:28.109-05:00Also, I am not saying my findings are conclusive e...Also, I am not saying my findings are conclusive evidence that it's a habit vs. an addiction either. I am simply stating what the results of my experiment was. Now, have similar experiments been tried on a larger scale? I don't know. We are creatures of habits and part of those habits is drinking to excess, taking drugs to excess, or partaking in any activity to excess because he have made it a habit of doing so.tthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09917268285666551114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-17265396267876624502010-10-29T12:21:50.428-05:002010-10-29T12:21:50.428-05:00Anon - I do plan to watch the video as soon as I h...Anon - I do plan to watch the video as soon as I have my laptop back. Right now all of my writing here is being done via a blackberry. I tried hunting for it on my web browser on my blackberry but the couple of sites that had it were not friendly to watching it on a blackberry.<br /><br />Clark - I understand that that scores of studies exist on "addiction" but science is not always right. I find it humorous that we are all clinging to "addiction" as the vast majority of our brain is unknown to what powers it has. I don't claim to have access to them but I do know that through my own experiences and use of meditation I have been able to increase the strength of my will power even when partaking in "addictive" activities.tthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09917268285666551114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-62002182785669279742010-10-29T08:50:19.575-05:002010-10-29T08:50:19.575-05:00"Do I get urges to spend, gamble, drink, eat,..."Do I get urges to spend, gamble, drink, eat, etc...yes."<br /><br />I've said before and I'll say again, those are not addictions IMO. They do not trigger dopamine/endorphine production above natural levels. They do not block reuptake. And most importantly to me, they do not exhibit physical withdrawl symptoms when the stimulus is taken away beyond the "desire" to do whatever it was. That's not addiction, it's compulsion. They are different.<br /><br />"Do I allow them to control me to the point that it becomes an "addiction"; NO. Why? Because I have the will power to understand and make a choice."<br /><br />And in those cases, you SHOULD BE ABLE to resist the urge. Willpower should be able to override a compulsion. Addiction is markedly different. <br /><br />To me, the choice for addiction is before you actually use it. Once you use, you are screwed because you let the dragon sink his claws into you.Trumannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-1968861351695805142010-10-29T08:02:03.469-05:002010-10-29T08:02:03.469-05:00Please post as a response by Clark: "Viper, I...Please post as a response by Clark: "Viper, I never suggested that you couldn't believe whatever you want about addiction. I was simply trying to find out how you formed that belief. Now that I know, you've confirmed my suspicion that along with your belief about addiction, you also believe that you are the smartest person in the room. How else do you explain the fact that your belief is based on a "scientific experiment" that you conducted with a few friends? How else do you explain the fac that your belief flies in the face of overwhelming amounts of scientific evidence? Why should anyone believe you when you say that addiction is simply an excuse because you did an experiment with a few friends that smoke?Clark W. Griswoldnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-40545300876434202162010-10-28T21:14:52.853-05:002010-10-28T21:14:52.853-05:00Anon you do realize that there is a group of peopl...Anon you do realize that there is a group of people that are known as Scientologists that do not believe in addiction. Are you so beholden to studies and science that have only mapped,at most, 10 percent of the brain. So is it not possible that viper has a possible point. As he has pointed out scientist believed pluto a planet but no longer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-8617599964076080392010-10-28T18:46:54.762-05:002010-10-28T18:46:54.762-05:00Science is absolute that addiction is real. I bel...Science is absolute that addiction is real. I believe Truman's point is that addiction doesn't absolve people of their actions. But I won't speak for him. <br /><br />Like I've said, you don't know what you are talking about. There is a whole chapter and multiple references in the 12 step book for atheist and agnostics. It works just as well for them as anyone. The point is to find a higher power, not being. That doesn't have to be a god. Many people rely on the group or a sponsor. It's a spiritual program, not religious. <br /><br />Have you checked the link provided or the video mentioned? You have no desire to look into the subject matter and are content with your belief. What's concerning is that there is plenty of evidence that you are wrong and choose to ignore. I guess for you, ignorance is a choice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9075324469668918466.post-69652114626823758062010-10-28T17:36:57.078-05:002010-10-28T17:36:57.078-05:00Truman - Are we arguing the fact that "addict...Truman - Are we arguing the fact that "addiction" exists or the degree of seperation of "addiction". Studies have indicated that if your parents and their parents displayed signs of "addiction" that you are prone to become one. If that were the case, then why am I unable to develop an "addiction". Before anyone says, "try meth" let's be realistic about the vice chosen for the "addiction". <br /><br />Do I get urges to spend, gamble, drink, eat, etc...yes. Do I allow them to control me to the point that it becomes an "addiction"; NO. Why? Because I have the will power to understand and make a choice. <br /><br />Anon - 12 Step programs are interesting because they invariably include a higher being involvement. If one is an atheist or agnostic - how does one every complete a 12 step program. It is the will power that one cultivates that ensures the 12 Step program is lasting not the abstinance of the activity. I understand their are volumes of work done to fuel the "addiction" industry. There was also scientific proof that Pluto was a planet but now their is equal proof that it is not.<br /><br />The FDA has whaffled on the good/bad of eggs, aspirin, alcohol and LSD. Remember that LSD was a legal substance and promoted to enhance the brains activity; specifically in coma patients. Studies and science are not absolutes for if they were then we'd not have a debate on global warming, we'd not have a debate on when life begins, and we'd not have a debate on third hand smoke.<br /><br />People need excuses for their actions and inactions. Our brain is largely untapped, to which the scientific community is well aware, yet people still cling to the notion of "addiction". As Truman has stated, repeatedly, it is a choice. Now, Truman and I differ after the choice is made.<br /><br />So until Science becomes absolute we are going to have to agree that people can believe in "addiction" and people can believe it's an excuse for a habit one is unwilling to break.tthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09917268285666551114noreply@blogger.com