Friday, January 15, 2010

What I missed today on Haiti discussion on Facebook while passing my series 66 today!!!

What a day today. I had a number of personal things to take care of and that is why my entry is tardy. The big news of the day is that I passed my Series 66 and will be heading off to the sunny skies of Arizona shortly for a week of learning with my new employer. While I was running about today, a great discussion was taking place on the blog entry about Haiti on Facebook. I warned the group there that I was going to life the conversation for my blog entry today. I am eager to see what readers of the blog think of the conversation from Facebook. Hopefully we will get some crossover as well. Well here we go: (***small disclaimer: Some responses contain explicatives****)

TP said:


I find your article incredibly troubling.


I said:

What are you finding troubling? The Tea Party movement, while a few carried questionable placards, the overriding theme, at least what I saw and heard, was one of frustration with out of control spending, taxes, and the growing of government. The speakers at Minneapolis were not all bashing Obama, Progressives or Democrats. In fact many acknowledged that the Republican Party and Bush had lost their way by casting aside conservative values for reckless and progressive spending ideals.

So I ask you what do you find troubling about my blog entry?

TP said:

I don't give a damn what they were upset about. They never protested Bush spending did they? Sorry your supporting racists with a wink and an "oh well". For you to ask what I find troubling amazes me & shows an insensitivity which I don't tolerate. You blog about Reid then support this shit. BTW do you even know constitutional history & what the constitutional convention goals were or the context in which the convention was called? The White supremeists were there just like at that rally of deception.


TP continued:


What progressive spending ideals Education? Welfare? Health care for all (which I assume you're against). Don't believe in community do U? To call Bush policies progressives I'm afraid makes you lose credibility to me. You're using BS as an undercurrent to link Bush to Progressives & not fascism? You may not do well w/ the Buddhist w/ your take on "... See more conventional wisdom". If my Grandparents woulda seen that Tea Bagger shit Grandpa would've shot em just like he did the KKK. Do you really believe Black folk wouldn't be outraged?


To which I asked:


Did you read my blog entry from April on what I saw in Minneapolis?


And I added:


Plus I am not a socialist. I do believe in the importance of community as well as the limitations of it as well.


KH said:


Chris, I think Tony does have a point about the racist undertones of the "Tea bagger" party movement.


I see clear undercurrents of hypocrisy, false indignation and in my honest opinion racism in the tea bagger movement based upon their behavior and "Johnny come lately" movement towards "fiscal discipline" and belief in upholding the constitution.


Please where were they for the last 8 years when Patriot act was passed stripping American's of their constitutional rights? Where were they when the prescription drug plan was passed without even an attempt at paying for it within the bill?... See More


What has changed since those things happened? Oh that's right; the tea baggers party (republicans) lost the house, senate and presidency to a black man and his ilk. I don't like Obama or the Democrats any more than the Republicans but when something stinks in Denmark, it should be called for the pile of shit that it is. And the tea baggers aren't angry over government spending, that's just an excuse. They angry that they are feeling disenfranchised and inconsequential for the first time in their privileged white skinned, middle class lives.


Personally, I find them all hypocrites, fear mongers, racists and demagogues. But if the party they represent isn't careful and find a way to be inclusive of minorities it will find itself more and more marginalized in the future.


The days of white America dominating social and political culture in this nation are fast coming to an end. Don't believe me? Just ask the people of Atlanta when they last had a white mayor? The 2010 census will shock whites.....and probably drive quite a few to racist groups out of fear. I'm sure the tea party will be standing there with open arms to greet them.


KH added:


To your articles point though, I really do like that the president took a stand quickly and tried to show America as a leader and show the true American spirit to the world.


What won us so many friends through our existence was the fact that we, the American people, always tried to be there for others in the world when they were in need. The goodwill this generated benefited us for decades after the acts occurred.


We are the richest and most powerful nation on earth. If we stood by and did nothing when another nation, especially a neighbor so close to us, suffers - what does that say about us? ... See More


And the people trying to score political points off of this tragedy are the worst of us. They bring us all down from the heights we are capable of and diminish our acts of kindness and generosity.


To which I responded:


I do acknowledge that the conservative voice lost its bite and blindly followed bush. And that is why I think the tea party movement started. Perhaps I am naïve but I attempt to look at the movement as a group of people fed up with out of control government regardless if a democrat or republican is in office.


KH responded:


Chris, the government was out of control for years. NEVER during that 8 years did these same people speak up and cry foul. So that begs the question what changed? As I said above, it's a black man and his ilk sitting in "THEIR" seat of power. Remember that the tea party movement is nearly 100% white, middle class and Republican.


Their sudden discovery of small government, fiscal discipline and defense of the constitution stinks of the shit that is political opportunism, not truly deep seated beliefs in these ideals.


I say this rather confidently because the talking heads that appear on TV supporting this movement are clearly visible during the Bush years supporting the very ideals that they now cry foul over.... See More


So, I'm sorry to say but, I believe you are being naive. There may be some people like yourself who truly believe these things in the movement - but your leadership does not. They will use you for the pack mules that they see you to be moving their political baggage to the next convenient party message and dump you when you become inconvenient.


TP responded:


Do you even know what a socialist is? Answer my questions about constitutional history? Do you know it or do u just do one line disclaimers to obfuscate your right-wing manipulative over simplifications? The Mpls Tea Party was put together by the friggin PATRIOT CHANNEL SCUM!! The other TParties were organized by the same people who rented the ... See More busses for the invasion of Florida so that the recount of 2000 would be disrupted long enough for the Supreme Court to steal the election. And in doing so cover up the violations against Blacks in ref to the Voting Rights Act & the Civil Rights Act. Do you know the history behind the reason for the founding of the court? Kevin what the USA is giving for Haiti is a fraction of what we owe them, Cubans, Mexico & all of Latin America for the EXTREME human rights violations,& pilferage committed by us against them over the past 2 centuries plus(read "THy Will Be Done").How about honoring Treaty Rights right here in the good ole boy USA? I do not see the largesse u do. BTW we give less to the needy of the world (who we continue to rape) per GNP than any other country in the world. Chris: When the all White T bggrs close their eyes & sing about taking their country back they are telling me FUCK YOU & u know what all I got to say is FUCK YOU BACK!!!


TP added:


BTW the only limitations of Community are that capitalized sociopaths cannot act in their own eschatologically fatalistic individual self interest at the expense of human freedom. Like destroying our natural right to free & equal access to clean Land, clean Air & clean Water. These bastards oppress the many for the profit of the few in order to produce more capital, which in the end is artificial POWER and a license to enslave, rape, napalm, torture & kill to protect "their property"


KH responded with:


Ok, for the record, the election in 2000 was not stolen. That implies that it was Al Gore's win based upon facts not in record and the Supreme Court overturned those facts in favor of a politically expedient resolution. Since we do not know for a fact that Florida was won by Al Gore, thus giving him the Electoral College votes to be president (in part because the Supreme Court stopped the counts mind you) it's impossible to say that the election was stolen. It was however settled through less than constitutional means via the Supreme Court which IMO overstepped their authority in electoral issues.


But the past is the past. Dwelling on a result you disliked doesn't change that result.


Tony, I have no problem giving Haiti anything, but remember it was France that "raped" that country not the US. Also, to claim reparations one must have a valid claim of harm being done to you personally not via some historical grievance of generations gone by. I'm all for fixing the social injustices of the past, but wealth re-distribution is not the solution because it's analogous to giving a homeless person a winning lottery ticket without the skills to manage those newly won resources. Without those skills the winnings are squandered and they are soon back where they started. Enabling those who were wronged to earn their own wealth through improvements in their economy, society, culture and political systems are the true gifts we can give them and they will generate returns on investment for centuries to come.... See More


But to say that we owe them for wrongs of a generation or more ago is where I say "I personally did you no wrong, therefore I owe you nothing". But I am still generous enough in spirit to give of my own free will because I would hope they'd do the same in my shoes. But I don't owe that to them - it's called being altruistic and charitable.


TP responded with:


Read Greg Pallast and others. They Robbed the election the good ole fashioned plausibly deniable Southern way, they nullified the Black vote in the state that the redneck Texan has a redneck brother. Oh gee do you want to buy some swamp land in the Arctic? The Supreme Court ordered the state of Florida to stop the recount. That was unprecedented ... See More but the real story that the Corporate media never told was the computer voter fraud or the coercive forces unleashed to turn Blacks away from the polls. So sorry thats a GD theft!!& No one said a word. The Cong Black Caucus walked out on Bush being declared winner for that reason.


KH responded with:


Again theft implies that Al Gore was president legally and that it was taken from him illegally. At no time was he declared victor via the Electoral College and at no time did he hold the votes necessary to make that claim prior to it being declared either. Therefore it was merely a judgment that you disagree with because of your political leanings - not theft which implies something criminal.


I've read plenty from all sides regarding this issue and the point I make is completely valid still. The assertions you are making are suppositions, innuendo and inferences, not facts. Facts are things we can prove, not things we believe to be true. The fact is that the Supreme Court likely overstepped its authority in stopping the election recounts in Florida. That is likely a fact. The fact is that when this occurred, it implicitly awarded the election to GWB because he held more Electoral College votes than Gore.


All the rest has yet to be proven as fact and is merely assumed, surmised, implied or inferred to have happened. If its fact and you have evidence to that effect, then a class action lawsuit should be brought on behalf of the disenfranchised voters in a court of law. The fact that this hasn't happened tells me that this isn't the case so yell, scream and bluster all you want of "theft" that doesn't make it so.... See More


If all you have are the "facts" that cannot be verified, proven or otherwise become evidence based upon reasonable legal standard then they are not fact. They are suppositions and that's all they are.


By the way, screaming, using sarcasm and ad hominem statements because you feel people were somehow wronged or because you feel we're not smart enough to see your point only makes your point that much less valid in my opinion. People should be capable of discussing a subject and agreeing to disagree in an agreeable manner. If you can't do that, your point loses any value to those around you that you are trying to influence


TP responded with:


Does "less than constitutional" mean unconstitutional & if it does (it does) then it was taken illegally. "STOLEN" is an appropriate word. Read Haitian history about 19th century American involvement I don't want to hear what you believe about historical facts tell me what you know. Right now your 0 for 1.I love it when White people jack you take ... See More control then claim you aint got the experience to run anything yourself. Haiti was doing just fine in recovering her national life w/Aristide & then we over threw him not once but twice. & now they are not even allowed to grow rice because the WTO has forced Haiti to accept cheap GM rice grown cheaper than the Haitians can grow it &forced on to that market thru shere gangsterism just like in Ethiopia. Just like what NAFTA did to Mexico. I love it when white folks have someone else's shit & then refuse to even consider sharing it because your Grand Daddy took it. There is no statute of limitations on crimes against humanity. You want to support social justice "your way" we don't count because in the end we gotta take whatever bone you throw. How long do you think we as aspecies can survive with that kind of attitude? We as a species are dying & we need cooperation not the paternalistic bullshit I just heard I just get so sad hearing decent people like you talk with no clue to the real meaning to your words.


KH ended with:


How quaint that you cling to the constitution with your hands in a vain attempt to justify Gore's presidency and at the same time trample it with your feet by claiming that reparations are due to those who were not wronged and should be paid by people who did not wrong them.


To address your points.


Show me where in the constitution or in the annals of US law where the Judicial decision in 2000 was an illegal act?... See More


Unprecedented? Yes. But so was Roe V. Wade, is that illegal? The Supreme Court sets precedent every day with their decisions effectively enacting law through their constitutional powers. Constitutional scholars still argue over the legitimacy of the 2000 election decision and rightly so as the constitution DOES NOT ADDRESS IT DIRECTLY. Therefore their decision is based upon things they infer from the verbiage within that document.


Second, there is a statute of limitations on "crimes against humanity" and that limitation is the death of those responsible. Your stance begs the question; do you hold the African leaders equally responsible for the failures of their tribal ancestors who sold their people into slavery for profit? Where does it end or is this just about getting yours from the "white man" for perceived/actual wrongs of centuries past?


I'll leave you with a question because I see this discussion going nowhere because you continue to resort to ad hominem statements rather than reasonable discourse.


If you truly hate this nation the way it sounds like you do, I'd ask why you don't leave it? What keeps you here? Is it the privileges you enjoy that were guaranteed by generations of white "grand daddy's" throughout the last 250 years?


If that the case, then in my honest opinion, that's the reparations that you and your ilk cry so badly for. 250 years of sacrifice in defense of an ideology that you hold in contempt but still take advantage of. Perhaps you should contemplate that and think about whether a "thank you" is owed to them as much as you feel they owe you something for the mistakes they made?


Just some food for thought.